Fred Goodwin telephone interview by Elizabeth Drake McDonald

May 7, 1999

"I won’t hold anything back. I’ll TELL you. This needs to be archived, you know. It needs to be known."
— Fred Goodwin

GOODWIN: When I was a little boy I was always fascinated with Bob Nolan and when I was going to the movie theaters I was going to see Roy Rogers but I was thrilled seeing the likes of The Sons of the Pioneers, especially Bob with his unique voice. He looked good and everything. I thought this guy’ll be a star! This was in the early 50s and I was just a little kid. I was seeing all the re-releases of the Sons of the Pioneers in the theatres and then they were on television and actually, that’s how they got their recording contract back.  They renegotiated about 1955 and the reason why is because Republic Studios had released those movies to the television stations throughout the United States.

MCDONALD: So that’s why they wanted Tim and Bob—that lineup—back again…

GOODWIN: Exactly. And that’s the reason RCA wanted them back RCA said, mmm, they got a whole new bunch of people on television [who] don’t know who the Sons of the Pioneers are. A new generation. That was my generation, more or less. And so they came back and they renegotiated a new contract with the Sons of the Pioneers and Tim Spencer did it. But Tim at that time was not singing with the group. 

MCDONALD: They say he had some voice problems.

GOODWIN: Yeah, he had some voice problems and there were some other problems, too. I won’t get into that. He had some voice problems and he was more or less negotiating the contract for the Sons of the Pioneers. During 1955 he and the Sons of the Pioneers were on a tour. They were up in Canada on a tour somewhere. I need to find that exact date but I know they were up in Canada. They were on tour. Well, Lloyd Perryman takes leave of the tour and goes back to…

MCDONALD: He quit for awhile.

GOODWIN: He quit for awhile but what it was, Dale Warren and Tommy Doss didn’t know what was going on until Lloyd got back and RCA had renegotiated this contract.  I mean Tim Spencer had renegotiated this contract with RCA and it had excluded Tommy Doss and it excluded Shug Fisher and it excluded Dale Warren. They wanted the original lineup of the Sons of the Pioneers therefore this is the contract as it was  - The Farr Brothers, Lloyd Perryman, Pat Brady, and Bob Nolan. That still leaves out one, correct?

MCDONALD: So they got Ken Curtis.

GOODWIN: Exactly and they brought Ken Curtis in. Ken had already left the group. Ken left the group in 1952. So Tim Spencer brought in Ken and that was the group on record during ’55, ’56 and ’57. That’s the way it was. That was the lineup and that’s the only way they could renegotiate a contract. Well, Bob just did not want to tour at all. He just refused to tour so therefore during that time period, you had a traveling group of the Sons of the Pioneers and you had a recording group.

MCDONALD: And one resenting the other?

GOODWIN: No. There was actually no resentment as far as Nolan and them was concerned but a lot of resentment by Tommy Doss and Dale Warren. And Tommy was…well, they almost quit. They needed the money and they were travelling and they stayed with it but that was probably the only time they got a little po’d at Lloyd. But it wasn’t Lloyd’s fault now. Lloyd was running the group but he wasn’t running the group. Tim Spencer was actually still the brainchild behind the group. 

MCDONALD: And pressure from RCA?

GOODWIN: Exactly. Then they renegotiated the contract in 1959, or ’58, excuse me, and the very first recording session that Dale Warren did was called “My Last Goodbye” and they were on tour at the time and they were in New York City. They recorded the song in New York City, one of the few times that they recorded up there. So they recorded in New York City and the session man was Brad MacEwan. He was the producer at that time.

MCDONALD: Was that the time they recorded with the Three Suns?

GOODWIN: No, no. Different time period. That’s the last time they recorded in New York City. Maybe the only time. Maybe they did The Three Suns. I can’t remember right now.

MCDONALD: And Perry Como?

GOODWIN: Oh, yeah. They recorded up there earlier. Excuse me. They recorded the Como session, too. And there are some things about the Como that I could tell you, too. Anyway, we’re still in 1958, so we’ll go back a few more years to about 1951, I believe, and they were in New York City to do the Como Show which, I think, back then was like maybe about 15 minutes or so sponsored by Chesterfield cigarettes on television and radio. And, apparently, I think it was on CBS. Well, during the show of course they were in their wardrobe outfits so afterwards they had to go to a recording session at RC Webster Hall there in New York.  So they go over there and here’s the Pioneers and they’re not dressed in their western clothes…

MCDONALD: …and Perry Como swaggers in in his western duds.

GOODWIN: Exactly. You know that story.

MCDONALD: I read the record. 

GOODWIN: OK. Here they are in there and Tommy said, “You know, that little guy comes in there with a big old ten gallon hat and his western duds and he comes in there like a western dude, and he was already for the deal and here’s the Pioneers with street clothes on.” But he said he [Perry] was so prepared and the recording session went so smoothly on that.

I got to see Como a few years later, maybe about 15 years ago in Nashville. He was here for a concert. We got together backstage and I asked him, I said, “I think one of the best things you ever did was one of the best versions of Tumbling Tumbleweeds, you and the Sons of the Pioneers.” And he looked at me and he said, “Yeah. And the flip side was and You Don’t Know What Lonesome Is.” Can you imagine the memory, the guy can remember that? He enjoyed doing that with the Pioneers.

Another time they did Enzio Pinza who was like the master of Broadway at the time and South Pacific. 

MCDONALD: The Wind is a Woman?

GOODWIN: The wind is a woman.... (sings the first line).

MCDONALD: He was not hitting the right notes and the director told him to listen to the Pioneers. They were never off key ….

GOODWIN: Exactly. They’d already rehearsed. They knew everything. The Pioneers were perfectionists.

MCDONALD: They were fantastic. Do you suppose it’s really true that they had a repertoire of 2-3,000 songs?

GOODWIN: It’s true. I promise it’s true. I’ll tell you why, ‘cuz if you worked for Lloyd Perryman, you knew it. That’s it. Period.  All the Pioneers were into their enunciation of words. You listen to the Pioneers’ songs and the enunciation was so clearly defined. That’s the way they were and Lloyd Perryman kept that intact within the group, into later on. They called Lloyd “P”, that was his nickname, they called him “P”. 

Lloyd and Tommy Doss and Shug Fisher and Pat Brady were very close friends socially. They did everything socially. And when Ken Curtis was with the group, they did everything socially, too. Ken Curtis was part of that group. But Tommy was very close to Lloyd.

There was personality conflicts back then. But Hugh Farr was always antagonizing Tommy or anybody who was current with the group. I knew Hugh real well, too. Hugh would talk like (deepens his voice), “Well, you see one, you’ve seen them all.” You know, he was getting on Tommy’s case. I think they were in Las Vegas and they were fixing to go on stage and Hugh had been saying things to him and cursing him and saying things that shouldn’t have been said. Tommy had enough of it. Tommy’s tormented. He hit him so hard that he fell down. (Deepens voice again) “Huh! What’d you do that for?” (laughter) He left him alone then.

MCDONALD: But Karl was more laid back, wasn’t he?

GOODWIN: Karl was more laid back but, you know, brothers are thick—blood thick—and he would always get Karl…. Hugh sort of wanted to run the group. He was sorta jealous of Bob and Tim and Lloyd but Hugh wanted to do it his way. 

Hugh was an accomplished musician. Hugh was just as good a guitar player as he was a fiddle player. A lot of people don’t know that. There wasn’t anything Hugh Farr couldn’t do. If you didn’t know it, he’d tell you. But Hugh was that type of person.

I never knew Karl and I never knew Pat Brady. Those are the only two I never knew. And I was very close with all the guys.

MCDONALD: Can you tell me a little more about Bob Nolan?

GOODWIN: I can tell you a lot about Bob but you need to know these things about the other people to, to….

MCDONALD: ...set him in perspective.

GOODDWI: Exactly. But Hugh and Karl were always upset, always trying to cause trouble. Hugh was always trying to cause trouble I think mainly because Hugh had a wife called Lynn and she put him up to all this—“You should be the head of the Sons of the Pioneers, not Lloyd Perryman. You’re the one everybody recognizes on stage” and all kind of stuff. She’d feed him all this stuff. 

But one day, they were out on tour someplace and here was Bob resting in the hotel room, just laid back. So Hugh and Karl knock on the door and they come in and they got all over Bob about something, just bitching to him. Bob gets up, gets both their heads in a headlock, both of them—one in one arm, one in the other—bumped their heads together. “Y’all leave me alone” or something like that. “I’m tired of you damn Farrs”. Bob told me that story. 

Bob Nolan was a very complex person, probably, back then. He was self-educated. And all the stuff about him going to the University of Arizona, there’s never been any proof about all that stuff.

I’m doing a book on the Sons of the Pioneers. Bill O’Neill and myself. Bill wrote this real great book on Tex Ritter and it comes out in, probably next year, I guess. We’re getting started on it. I do all the research and I supply the photos and Bill and I will do the writing. He’ll do most of the writing, I'll copy edit and it’ll be national distribution. It’ll be probably a couple of years. 

This will be more detailed than Griffis book. I talked to Ken just two nights ago about it. We just got this information this past week.  

Well, [Bob] was inducted into the Canadian Hall of Fame. They contacted me and I supplied all the information for them. I think they sent me the tape, too. I mean the videotape on there. I’m sure I’ve got it in my archives somewhere. I have so much. I don’t know what all I have in there.

Anyway, back to Bob. Just ask me questions and I’ll tell you.  I always asked Bob questions. Bob…you never knew what kind of mood he was gonna be in. I mean, he was always in a good mood, don’t get me wrong. He was always in a good mood, but was he in a talking mood? That’s the mood I’m trying to say. ‘Cuz if he wasn’t in a talking mood, he was in a thinking mood and you had to catch him. 

I’d call him and he’d say, “Fred, I’m cookin’”, you know, “I’ve got something on the stove,” which you don’t talk to him then. And then, there’s a certain time at night…I think he would go to sleep early.  You don’t call him late at night. You had to catch him at a certain time and he would just talk-talk-talk-talk and just tell me …and his chuckle! He had the nicest chuckle. 

I know I took a bunch of lobby cards … you know what lobby cards are? I took a bunch of lobby cards and we were looking at them and he signed them. You know, he autographed several things for me. I guess my biggest thing…you know, Bob didn’t write, either. He just didn’t write. I have a personal letter from Bob. Oh yeah, maybe one or two. 

Do you have my album, a 2 record set called Riders in the Sky on RCA? Do you have that?

MCDONALD: No. Is that a Pioneers…? 

Yeah. The first album I ever did. I got out of college and I produced that one for RCA. And I was real proud of it and I sent one to Bob. Why, I never heard a thing about it. So I wrote him and I said, “Bob. My feelings are sort of hurt because you never said anything.” He wrote back the nicest letter. He said, “Hemingway couldn’t have done better.” He loved Ernest Hemingway. Bob was really into philosophy but we didn't talk about that stuff that much. I mean I was, I’m a meat and potato man.

MCDONALD: Did you ever hear The Relative Man?

GOODWIN: The what Man?

MCDONALD: The Relative Man he wrote for Jim Nabors?

GOODWIN: No. Well, I’m sure I have, I just never….

MCDONALD: It takes about five minutes to listen to. 

GOODWIN: Is it on the album?

MCDONALD: It’s on Jim Nabors’ album, I See God.

GOODWIN: OK.

MCDONALD: It’s really worth listening to and Bob said he put his own ideas into that. He said that all the other religious stuff he wrote would suit anybody but this was what he really thought.

GOODWIN: He told me of all the songs he had heard – and maybe you know this one, this story – of all the songs he’d heard, there was only one song he’d wished he’d written, and that was Man Walks Among Us.

MCDONALD: I like the way he changed that. In fact, when I heard that Marty Robbins wrote it I couldn’t believe it. I thought….

GOODWIN: Everybody thought that was Nolan’s song.  He just loved that song. And he used to tell me about that. I want to read you something, OK?

MCDONALD: Please.

[flipped tape]

GOODWIN: OK. Bob sent me this. It says—you know, this is the album cover—it says, “To Fred. The road is a little longer than I’d expected—it is also a little nicer with friends like you along the way—Bob Nolan”. Boy! 

You know, I just…when they called me, probably about an hour or so when he died, and they called me from the West Coast. I cried, you know and…. I did the same thing with Jimmy Wakely and Lloyd Perryman. Those three guys meant a lot to me. I was associated with the Sons of the Pioneers for a long time but I was closer to Jimmy than anybody, I guess, But Bob and I were just…. I just really loved him.

He called me one time. He said [imitates Bob’s voice], he said, “Fred, would you contact Hank Snow and tell him I can’t possibly come to Nashville to perform. I don’t do that any more.” And I called Hank and that’s how I got to be friends with Hank Snow, by my association with the Pioneers and Bob.  

Bob wanted the Pioneers to retire the name after Tommy Doss quit. He wanted them to cease because it wasn’t there any more. But Lloyd kept the group going because you know these people needed the work. They needed a job. They kept the group going. And then, when Lloyd passed on, Tommy Doss said they needed to retire the name. Leave it like it is. 

MCDONALD: The Tumbling Tumbleweeds—did he ever play you the first introduction?

GOODWIN: No. Not to my knowledge. 

MCDONALD: I’m trying to find that to put into the archives, too.

GOODWIN: I’ll tell you what I do have. I do have a lot of Bob’s songs that have never been released. You’re probably not aware of that.

MCDONALD: Well, Bobbie gave me a tape….

GOODWIN: Oh, she did. That’s the same one that I’ve got then, OK. She made up several and she gave one to me and she made up about six of them, I guess. She made about half a dozen of them. 

MCDONALD: Robert Wagoner has one, too. Now he sent me the same tape but he finished off by putting My Mistress the Deserton it and then he let it drift into The Wind is Warm Again, the one…. Have you heard it?

GOODWIN: : No.

MCDONALD: Wagoner wrote a tune to Nolan’s song, the Wind is Warm Again. It’s really nice. You don’t happen to have The Castration of the Strawberry Roan, do you?

GOODWIN: Do I have what? The castration of the strawberry roan? Somebody else asked me about that. 

MCDONALD: It’s a record the Sons of the Pioneers cut one time.

GOODIN: I just came out with a Roy Rogers album. Have you seen mine?

MCDONALD: No. The Rhino one?

GOODWIN: No! Gosh no. Mine’s better. I leased the masters from RCA and I’m distributing it myself and I’m gonna get on the ball and I’m gonna…. I just haven’t had the time. You know, I’ve got a lot of money tied up in this thing. And it came out, we released it on Roy’s birthday, and it has 14 songs on there and it’s got 3 of his square dance calls, lots of it’s never been released before. This is RCA. 

This is high quality digital hollow touch [?] stuff. This is nice. This is very, very nice. I’ve got Rex Allen (I’m executive producer cause I own the product) I got Rex Allen and Ranger Doug Green to write the liner notes for me. I started all this stuff in 1973. I did all this when I was in my 20s. 

I did the complete Columbia Historic edition of CBS. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that or not.

MCDONALD: I’ve got the Columbia Historic Edition of the Pioneers. 

GOODWIN: That’s mine. I mean, that’s my album. I’ve got a Grammy [Gremlin?—couldn’t hear the word properly] on that. I wrote the liner notes for it. 

GOODWIN: And then we did the Tommy Doss deal. Bill Wiley and I did the Tommy Doss deal for Bear Family. Before Bill died he wanted this thing released so I said OK so I contacted Bear Family [Richard?—didn’t get the surname] and he said OK, we’ll do it. Bill’s the type of guy that if he tells you something, he means it. And I mean that’s just the way he is. That’s his word.  His word is his word whether he likes you then and hates you later on. That’s his word. 

But I’ve done all the major projects in the States for the Pioneers and Roy. I did The Best of Roy Rogers on RCA Camden back in 1974, I think. I’m responsible for that. I did the Reader’s Digest series, too.

MCDONALD: You did? I loved that.

GOODWIN: They don’t give me any credit on that. They don’t give anybody credit. 

There’s some songs in the movies that I can’t find. Now, I’m not having much luck with Unichappell, either. They say they’re going to go through their files and send me their stuff but there’s two songs, Sing While You Work….

GOODWIN: Yeah, that’s in Romance on the Range. [sings it]

MCDONALD: Yes, I know but my Romance on the Range is cut so I can’t get it. 

GOODWIN: I’ve got the original. I’ve got it on film. I’ve got the excerpt that was cut out from the movies. I’m the only one that has that stuff. I’ve got it. And I’ve got it on tape somewhere and I don’t know where it is. 

MCDONALD: OK. Let me run some of these names by you, then. Have you got time for this?

GOODWIN: Yeah. We’re gonna cut this off in just a little bit but go right ahead.

MCDONALD:
Back Streets and Side Roads
Chuck Wagon Time (C. Crawford, B. Mize)
Conversation With a [word missing]
Crossroads
The Crusher
A Faded Flower Lei
Glory of the Lamb, The (T. Spencer)
Goofus Stomp
Hi diddle Diddle, He Played the Fiddle (B. Allston)
I’m Constantly Dreaming of You (B. Allston)
Life and its Glory (E. Komanski)*
My Love Song
Oklahoma Bound
Old Cowboys Never Die (with June Hershey and Don Swander)
Ranch Next Door
She Ain’t What She Used to Be (T. Spencer)
Things are Never What They Seem (in Sons of the Pioneers, 1942)
Tree
Why Don't it Rain?
You Left the Moon too Near

GOODWIN: No. Do you have a complete list of all the songs in the movies?

MCDONALD: No. Not a complete list. 

GOODWIN: What we need to do is you send in your list and I need to send you my list what I have and we’ll do it that way. And I will send you something special. Let me tell you what I have in my archives. I have the original contracts of the Pioneers with all the signatures and all that type of stuff. And I have also have the …when they went to court against Hugh Farr? I have the whole transcript. I’ve never let that out. That’s gonna be part of my book, probably. I have so much I just…. It would be worth your while to come down here if you want to do research but I want you to do something with it. I want you …

MCDONALD: No, no, no. Hold on. I’m just doing the lyrics. I’m just doing the songs.

GOODWIN: You’re just doing the songs from the movies.

MCDONALD: No, not just the movies. All his songs. 

GOODWIN: All Bob’s songs.

MCDONALD: About 166 of them and Unichappell is supposed to send me another dozen or so.

GOODWIN: I have all that stuff from Warner Chappell. I should have it all.

MCDONALD: You have the lyrics?

GOODWIN: No. I have the lyrics of some songs of Bob’s that they sent me (Warner Chappell) that he wrote and sent to them and nobody knew anything about it. Don’t ask where it is. I’ll send it to you. Yeah, I have all that stuff. 

MCDONALD: OK. I’ll tell you what. I’ll send you a list of what I have and what I’m looking for.

GOODWIN: Next time you’re talking to Warner Chappell tell them to contact me and I know how to do it. We need to come out with a songbook on Bob Nolan. And it can be done. I’ve already got permission to do it from Bobbie. Sure I’m gonna do it. I can do anything I want to. 

ELIZABETH: That’s why I started this, because there wasn’t any such thing and I thought the least I could do is search around and find as many lyrics as I can and put them in the university and they’re there if someone needs them. Did you ever see Texas Stagecoach?

GOODWIN: I don’t know.

ELIZABETH: Well, you’ve got to look at it. I think that’s the Bob Nolan you knew. Not the one in the Roy Rogers movies. Anyway, I’d better let you go.

GOODWIN: Well, that was…. I’ve seen some of the Starretts but not all of them and, I’ll tell you a little story Bob told me. You won’t know this. There were on the studio lot, the Columbia lot, and this is where Harry Cohn…. How we got on the subject is I was asking him about Howard Yates. And I said, “Bob, you know, Howard Yates, he was a tough guy to work for.” And he does this chuckle and he says, “Oh, he wasn’t anything like Harry Cohn at Columbia.” He said, “Man, that guy was a bastard.”  I said, “What are you talking about?” He said well they were looking for somebody for Golden Boy. Have you heard this? Well, he was looking for someone to cast Golden Boy. And they were on the set and Harry Cohn walked on the set of the Pioneers and he looked at Nolan and said, “There’s my Golden Boy.” Nolan did NOT want to get in the movies. He did not want a starring role or any of that type of stuff. He just did not and he went off and hid from Cohn for a long time.

ELIZABETH: Right about that time, according to what I’ve found out, his brother held the Golden Gloves championship. Well, his brother was several inches taller than Bob and I think Bob might have thought that it would be a real farce if he was to play that on a movie when his brother was the real thing. And how did he [Bob] meet his wife?

GOODWIN: Oh, I know that story. P’Nuts was working in a drug store there real close to Columbia Studios, Gower Gulch or whatever they called it. And she was working in a drug store. She came out to California because she was going to be an actress. She was trying to get into movies, too. She was like a soda jerk or whatever. And Bob … him and the boys would come in there and get coffee, whatever, and she got to know ‘em. She got to know Bob. Her name was Clara and someone started calling her P’Nuts. She was just a little gal. So then the Pioneers went out, they got this gig in Chicago for RJ Reynolds Tobacco Company, they were sponsoring Camel’s cigarettes. They moved to Chicago. This was around 1940, I think. And then Roy was already at Republic Studios and Roy summoned them back to LA, to Hollywood because, you know “to star in the movies with me now” at Republic. So that’s when they moved back to California. During the time that they were away, they’d corresponded (Bob and P’Nuts) and then when they got back, they got married. I wish I could remember more things she said. They were a great couple and I have some really great pictures of them together. I have lots of photos of Bob in his latter days.

ELIZABETH: Nothing of his earlier days? Nothing pre-movie?

GOODWIN: Uh, no. But there’s some out there. I mean I know where I can get some. I do have some photos of them. I have lots of photos. I think there’s going to be 150 – 200 photos in this book that we come out with. They won’t be full-sized photos.

ELIZABETH: Don’t let the publishers talk you into a shortened version.

GOODWIN: No, we won’t be like that. It’s gonna be a good book. You know, we won’t do this for years. I’ve just now found the right person to do this with. A good writer. I don’t consider myself a good writer. I’m a good researcher and I know how to find things but I don’t consider myself a good writer. I’ve had to do it out of necessity ‘cuz I didn’t want anybody else to do it. I wanted to do it myself. I put the project together, why shouldn’t I write the project?

When Lloyd Perryman died, that was it. That was the end of the Pioneers that we know. None of the Pioneers were alcoholics. None of them were, even back in the old days. Now they would drink beer ‘cuz they were only human beings. Even Ken Carson said, now they would go out and he said, “Fred, you can’t imagine the women that would chase them.” He said they’d go to New York and they’d go back East and they never knew how big they were till they went out to see the fans. And everybody knew who they were. They were equivalent to the Rolling Stones, the Beatles, whatever, back then. They were I mean Big Time. Women knocking on their doors all the time. All that type of stuff and they could have had any woman they wanted. Ken told me that and Ken was not the type of person to lie. And they protected the name, the imagery, the Sons of the Pioneers. They were very proud of what they had accomplished. What they stood for. They were very proud people. 

ELIZABETH: There are just no bad rumours about them at all.

GOODWIN: There’s not any of that. There’s not. They were professionals and they were good to their fans. They were all professional people, they were great to the audience, great to the fans, great to the media, they were real easy to deal with. 

I like to help people that….I want to keep this music alive like you do. But we’re real careful about telling things that finds itself in print. Maybe they turn around the meaning of the word that you say. 

ELIZABETH: I’d like to know more about Bob Nolan.

GOODWIN: It’s interwoven. You have to know the inner goings of the Pioneers to know Bob, too. Roy Rogers, Tim Spencer and Bob Nolan started the Sons of the Pioneers. And, if you want to get really technical about it, Roy Rogers is the father of cowboy western music as we know it today and he’s never been given the credit. CBS News was in town last year and they interviewed me about 5 hours about the Sons of the Pioneers and Roy Rogers. Actually, it was Roy Rogers. And, if I can find it somewhere, I’ll give you the guy’s name in New York, I think. You can write him, tell him what you’re doing and maybe he’d be nice and send you the raw interview with me. But we don’t talk that much about Bob, though. A lot of people don’t give Roy Rogers credit for the guitar. I’m glad you called me because you called the right person and Ken Griffis is the right person to talk to, too. Ken can tell you a lot, but I won’t hold anything back. I’ll TELL you. This needs to be archived, you know. It needs to be known. And think of some more questions some time and call me again. I’ll try to get you out some information as quick as I can. 

ELIZABETH: OK. Well, I sure appreciate this. 

GOODWIN: OK. Best of luck to you!